Shelagh Fogarty hosted a discussion on LBC between Brendan O’Neill (Editor of Spiked Online) and Dalia Gebrial (Articles Editor of Novara Media) following David Lammy’s comments on the Marr show during which he basically likened Brexiters to Nazis.
Brendan gave Dalia a bit of a drubbing.
So much so she reverted to type and spoke of her browness and also spoke disparagingly of white people.
It’s a funny old world.
and as much as it's a comment on what David Lammy said and whether he should or should not have said it I want our conversation this hour also to be about how we between us between ourselves talk about politics here to help us kick it off is Brendan O'Neill editor of spiked and in the studio with me Dalia Gabriel editor at navara Media good afternoon to you both Brendan first of all you tell me what you made of the comments yesterday and the previous ones in the speech because there was they were different in tone yes I don't think there's any such thing as too far I think people should be free to say whatever they want including David Lammy and there should be no suggestion whatsoever of censorship or censure or any other kind of punishment for what he said however I do think he sounds shrill irrational historically illiterate and deeply prejudiced in what he's been saying in recent months about Brett Z supporters and brexit voters and this is the great irony of remainer Zoar Ramona's like David Lammy they pose as people who are opposed to prejudiced but they have unleashed into the world some incredibly ugly prejudices about ordinary voters about Brett Z supporters and about the population at large I mean it's very poisonous and very device I'll come back to some of the detail behind some of those claims you just made there once we've heard from Dalia Dalia Gabriel editor at navara media David lamby's comments both yesterday and in that original speech where he compared at the ERG to and always ideology as he could have called it to Nazi ideology yeah I think this comes probably as a bit of a shock but I actually think that David Lammy is making a very astute point and I actually think it's very sobering fascism the far-right it doesn't start with Nazi salutes it doesn't start with people marching down the streets in black shirts it starts with the kind of language that we have seen flourish through the leave campaign and also through the right-wing media in decades leading up which the UN actually picked out the right-wing British media as being particularly dehumanizing in the way it talks about immigration fascism starts with the demonization of already vulnerable groups of ethnic minorities of racial minorities and it's about basically making those people into enemies of the nation and it starts with that language and if it's allowed to continue it can justify all the kinds of violence against them and of course that has always existed this is a question to both of you that has always existed to one degree or another in our politics let's say in the last 50 70 years you say what that it is becoming obviously more intense more dangerous and that David Lammy and others are right to call it what they say it is yeah and I think that Brendon is being very disingenuous when he is saying that David Lammy is is talking about all the voters he isn't he's making a very specific point about people with power with political cultural social powers were talking media Baron Zemo and Brendon that's completely and utterly untrue and if you look at the comments that Lanny first made straight after the referendum he said that the referendum had unleashed the wisdom he puts quite scare quotes around the word wisdom off the plebiscite and he said that wisdom turns out to be one of resentment and Prejudice that is reminiscent off the 1930s so from the very GetGo DH a few days after the referendum he was comparing ordinary people to Nazis and we've seen this again and again and it's such a terrible state of affairs where for what for one of the first times in living a second when he said that immediately after the vote resentment anger did he say then anything about Nazis he said it was a resentment and Prejudice reminiscent of the 1930s everyone knows what that means right that means 1930s Europe that means tonight that means the Nazis well what we are actually took on that but you know we have a situation hold on let me finish my comment let me finish we have a situation where ordinary people for the first time in living memory have asserted their democratic rights and have demanded some more democratic control and we have leftists calling them fascists it's such an incredible betrayal of ordinary people's right to have some democratic determinism over their own affairs I think it's really repulsive and that's where the real prejudice is coming just before we come back to Dahlia in what sense were his comments yesterday and in that original speech historically inaccurate as you described them Brendon because I think to compare the contemporary political situation as tense and difficult as it is to the horrors of the 1930s is historically illiterate and even worse than that it fuels its own form of prejudice because one of the key drivers behind anti-semitism off the kind that we see in the Corbin movement for example is Holocaust relativism this idea that the Holocaust period wasn't as bad as the Jews say and I think anything which which waters found the uniqueness of what happened in the 1930s is an incredibly dangerous game to play so I'm worried about David Langley's use of Holocaust relativism to win political points Darley oh come in I think that this is a completely shameful link that is being made by Brendan right now this is not something that David Lammy is just saying this is what people historians of the Holocaust and historians of fascism are saying about this current moment it starts with language it starts with whipping people up into a racist frenzy and it can end in a very toxic place and can't have we forgotten that he was assassinated for showing humanity towards refugees have we forgotten that five mosques were attacked in the immediate aftermath of Christchurch is that David Lammy sport is that Corbin's fault or is it the fault of politicians that have aroused the kind of language to justice friends and combative humanize Muslims in particular okay again this is a friend this is just naked elitism this idea that the vote the massive vote for breaks it was an act of racist frenzy is just something but only someone who is utterly disconnected from ordinary people could possibly hold a view like that because if you actually went outside of your navara and made your bubble and talk to ordinary people possibly even some working-class people you would find that the reason people voted for Brett see it was on the basis of democracy the number one reason was that they believed British laws should be made by Democratic British institutions faster than one reason people gave for voting for break sir there's a latest view that they're all whipped up into a racist frenzy is that's exactly what I'm talking about it's ugly spiteful view of voters as not even waiting it's real snobbery what I'm arguing is that the lead campaign was able to get millions of people to co-sign a racist narrative and quite ordinary person I don't speak as a brown person in this country who knows what it is like to step out of the house after the Christchurch shootings after hearing that swastikas are being spray-painted on walls and mosques are being attacked I will take no lessons from you on how seriously we should be treating racist language considering murderer Andres Brevik a product of multiculturalism I'm sorry but the existence of people of color in this country does not justify because people can't hear it go on Brendan I said that the politics of identity is an incredibly divisive phenomenon which intensifies racial thinking and I think that's the cause of so much of the violence that we see today but okay if we plain the identity part let me say that as the working-class son of Irish immigrants I am sick and tired of the media class of which you seem to be a representative looking down upon ordinary voters as this mob who can be so easily whipped into a prejudiced frenzy by demagogues and that's exactly you have just exposed precisely the prejudices I'm talking about because we are now talking about ordinary people we are not talking about people with power so stop behind ink hiding behind the pseudo Marxist front you are talking about ordinary people and you think they are so dumb and so suggestible can have a prejudice that they can begin to a frenzy by demagogues that's what this is about and and we focused in our conversation here a lot on breaks it for obvious reasons because that that's where David Lammy started but what I want to do and perhaps Tyler I'll start with you on this it would be a mistake for any of us to presume that the extreme politics such as we might describe it exists only on the right it clearly exists on the left as well but I have found strange around an individual like Jacob Riis mark for example when he says that he does not believe abortion is ethically defensible when he and others say that same-sex marriage for those who believe marriage is a religious sacrament is not the same as marriage as they understand it would you my view when when people say that and they get attacked as intolerant bigots for saying it is that the intolerant bigot is the person attacking them because those are two examples where a person's religious faith the person's conscience a person's understanding of history are really brought to bear when they answer those questions I've seen deep intolerance on the left towards comments like that from Jacob Riis mark and others I'm just using him as a notable example do you accept there's intolerance on the left in in in perhaps social issues for example well I think that in the examples that you mentioned free speech is a two-way street Jacob Riis mark has the right to argue for he was called a monster when he did and he was routinely called a monster when he said those things well I think because the issues that he's talking about have really real impacts on people's lives you know it's about whether or not people whether or not you know people who are gay are able to adopt or whether or not people who are gay are able to have their marriage recognized yes I accept that and they're complex they're protected by state laws but he has every right to say what he believes doesn't even have been called a monster yeah absolutely but I think that in terms of and especially when we come back to this idea of the ordinary person I think the problem here is that there isn't one single ordinary person we've some for some reason pitting the working class against people of color and that is something that we are trying to break through in the session completely untrue a third of ethnic minority voters voted for breaks it they get completely airbrushed out of this discussion by the elitists working quite the working classes as I know from my personal experience growing up includes people of all colors and all faiths and all Creed's everyone knows this and working-class people and so Brendon about dahlias upbringing I don't know anything about dahlias upbringing a lot less long not as long as you have I'm talking about elitist attitudes I don't really mind where people come from or what their background is I'm talking about elitist attitudes and in my view if you look at history if you look at the arguments that were made against the Chartists who argued for working Crossroads all the arguments that were made against the suffragettes they were always the ordinary voters are untrustworthy because they are suggestive all and can be won over by demagogues when those arguments come back as they now do even if they are under the cover of leftist radicalism they have to be called out because once the argument was constantly made against suffrage for the working classes and for women and that's the elitism when talking let me get a final thought from you Dalia because I began my Brendon I do believe that brexit was a brick in the established in the walk in the window of the establishment and that is a concept that word means different things for different people doesn't quite it's a consequence in my view of growing inequality of policies like austerity that were passed by Westminster primarily but the problem with the leave campaign and I say this is someone who is very euro skeptical I'm not a Ramona as Brendan would call me I'm highly you're a sceptical and I would have voted leave under different terms the problem with the leave campaign is that it took those economic concerns of ordinary people and it made people blame their labor their brown or black neighbor or the refugee rather than the very elites that the politics of the leave campaign which was by the way run by very wealthy white men that actually is sustaining the very system that makes people more unequal to leave it there thank you very much indeed to both of you for a really interesting discussion to Dalia Gabrielle editor at Navarre immediate and to Brendon O'Neill editor of spiked your calling in your droves already talked to in a moment 120